The following interview was conducted by Kim Dubuisson. It originally appeared in NONE SO VILE #2, print date August 2001.
I
got my first taste of the beast known as SUBCONSCIOUS CRUELTY at the Fantasia
Film Festival back in 98. The gruesome trailer was shown before the presentation
of RUBBER'S LOVER and what a trailer it was! Blood, people having sex with the
earth, a guy sucking on a woman who has a knife for a penis and more blood.
After the film everyone was talking about SUBCONSCIOUS CRUELTY. What followed
was two years of waiting to finally have the chance to see this visual
nightmare.
But
the story around SUBCONSCIOUS CRUELTY is almost as complicated and wild as the
film itself. Six and a half years in the making, nearly losing the negative to
saboteurs, having the director put in a holding cell while the Canadian
Boarder's Custom Agents watched a rough cut of the film and then declared it
"obscene", this an much more is what director/writer/editor Karim
Hussain and producer Mitch Davis had to go through.
I
had the pleasure to chat with Karim Hussain and Mitch Davis.
NSV:
First of all guys, tell us about your background.
K:
I was born in a strange place called Ottawa, Canada, and started making Super-8
short movies since before my teens. I
had always been obsessed with movies, and particularly horror movies in general.
Nothing too different from the normal background of most filmmakers.
Only in Ottawa, it was a particularly cold and repressive environment in
a sense, so that undoubtedly made me quite analytical and kind of strange in the
way I look at things, I don’t know.
M:
I’m from Montreal. As a
child, I was obsessed with horror films and comics from about age 5 when I went
to a haunted house ride in an amusement park and completely lost my mind over
the feelings it provoked in me .My grandfather bought me a super 8 projector
when I was around 7 and I went ballistic collecting these 200 ft (roughly 8
minute) condensations of horror films that until then, I’d only been able to
read about in FAMOUS MONSTERS magazine. Besides projections, I really got off on
just holding the film element, smelling it, etc. Because I so often saw parts of
films out of context, through condensations or only still photos, I spent a lot
of time dreaming up all sorts of strange situations that might have led
to the few plot points that I actually knew for certain were there. This,
and the fact that I felt uncomfortable around many people, I guess probably
contributed to the curious specimen I am today.
Certain girlfriends too, but I guess that goes without saying, and that
came later. Why am I still talking?!
NSV:
When and where did you two first meet? You two have a very unique unique way to
see the genre yet you both seem to have the same inspirations and look of the
future.
M:
The fact that we’re both very interested in making these somewhat experimental
horror films has caused way too many people to lump us up as one creative being,
which is obviously ridiculous. We just happen to be moved by similar ideas.
Almost exactly the same films had affected us immensely, and at the time we met,
we were obsessed with them to extremes that nobody else in our lives were. Just
the same, we tell very different kinds of stories.
NSV:
SUBCONSCIOUS CRUELTY was born out of which ideas?
K:
Subconscious Cruelty is basically a transcription of my dreams and
structured in that way. Dreams are
small vignettes loosely fitted together that sometimes hold a long narrative,
but will undoubtedly at times veer off into valleys or more elliptical moments. So the structure of the film as an anthology picture
undoubtedly helps if you have to shoot over the course of many years, but it was
also very intentional to be more like a long fever dream. Never did I want to make it a full on narrative ‘normal’
type of movie.
NSV:
The film explores birth, family, sex and religion but in the most vilest way i
have ever seen. Are you afraid that some of the public might only see the
visualy shocking elements and think of it as a mindless gore film?
K:
Well, the horrific things in the movie are pretty tough, but are shot in
kind of a poetic and very visually lush manner, so it’s not just throwing
blood on a wall and shooting it with a camcorder thinking “COOL, BLOOD!”.
I rather don’t care for that kind of thing, and though the movie is
definitely hyperbolic, that was the canvas I chose to paint on.
The idea was to start at a point that most people would never dream they
would reach, then go from there. It’s
a pretty angry movie, but I think one filled with a lot of love.
Just because they kill a baby in the film doesn’t mean that I think
people should kill babies, very far from that.
It’s a horror film, and as such, I felt it was right to portray the
perversion and unbridled miscomprehension that the characters felt as pure and
tough as it would be. There are plenty of things in Subconscious that people think
about daily, but would never speak of… The
film is just a quest to be honest. If
honesty scares people, then so be it. That was the point.
M:
Also, you have to keep in mind that we started shooting this in early 1994, at a
point when the mainstream horror film was typified by apolitical and thoroughly
safe stuff like DR GIGGLES. Everyone
involved with SUBCONSCIOUS felt very strongly about making a genre film with a
personal voice, that would refuse to consider a prospective audience when it
came to narrative devices, film language or levels of explicitness. All of us
had been shaped by these sorts of films, ones that weren’t so utterly afraid
of alienating 10% of their audience, and they just weren’t getting made
anymore. Or I guess I should say, weren’t getting released.
We were also a pretty angry lot back then. We wanted
to make a film that would make audiences feel more than they’d ever
bargained for.
NSV: Personaly, the hardest part for me is when the brother (played by Ivaylo
Founev) help his sister (played by Brea Asher) giving birth to her baby and then
kills it and holds the baby corpse over her so that the blood splatters all over
her. Birth has to be the most beautiful thing in the world so this really
shocked me. What's your view on this?
K:
Sure birth is great and beautiful. The
idea is to show the biggest mockery to creation.
The Brother doesn’t do it because he hates babies or even his sister.
He actually loves them, but perhaps a bit too much, and certainly has no
concept of what a true compassionate feeling or thought could be like. But he tries. He
doesn’t want to even kill her, he just wants to see what her expression would
be like. The simple explanation
is… He is crazy, you know.
It’s a portrayal of madness, not an endorsement.
M: I think that the whole sequence is too heartfelt and painful to ever be misconstrued as being anything truly hateful, but I hope that it’s a bitter pill for viewers to swallow.
NSV:
The next segment where people are "having sex" with the earth really
put the viewer into another realm of mind. After viewing incest and infanticide,
we see naked people making love with the earth in an natural and almost
primitive way. The way its filmed almost make it beautiful What was the idea or
the message behind this rather unusual segment?
K:
The bit where the people fuck the ground is meant to be a different perspective
on blood. Up until that point blood
is portrayed as something to be feared and disgusted by, which is really crazy
when you think about it, because we are made of blood, so if you’re
afraid of it, you’re afraid of yourself.
So that episode is meant to be a different perspective on blood, as
something beautiful and natural. The
bit where the businessman jerks off is just to show his rage and alienation from
women and human contact in general. It
is his routine, but it makes him human, so he feels humiliated from having to be
weak with normal feelings. NOT a
condemnation of masturbation whatsoever, I myself enjoy it greatly.
M: And goddammit, so do I. Let the record show that neither of us are anti-masturbation crusaders!
K:
I don’t necessarily have anything against the basic principles of some
religions, but I do have a bit of problem with how people manipulate people with
it for either financial or political gains.
That is what the film is crying against.
Christ in the film is crying against this too.
It is not an anti-Christ film, but an anti-hypocrisy film.
That’s pretty clear, I think, but of course all will be misconstrued,
and in a certain manner that’s fine. It’s
good for everyone to see a different film with this one.
NSV: Aren't you afraid that you might actually get into troubles because of the
heavy nature of SUBCONSCIOUS CRUELTY?
K:
So far, other than the problem with Customs in the past before the film was
completed, nothing really. Surprising,
considering the film has played in many countries at this date, though not in
the United States yet, which I can kind of understand.
Not necessarily a movie for them. But
in Europe and Asia it seems to go fine, which suits me well.
There was one little problem with a local paper, the Montreal Mirror,
where after a comic was published showing some graphic things from the movie,
some fanatic called up their offices and threatened to bomb it, or something
like that. They didn’t.
M: Nope, and neither of us were surprised. Angry reactionaries are almost always cowards, and thank fuck for that. As far as bookings go, we’ve only really run into one serious block because of the film’s content and this was – no shock here – in Toronto. The programmer of a major Toronto rep cinema loved the film and was completely afraid to book it for a run because of the eternally backwards Ontario “Film Review” Board, who most recently justified their useless existence by saving Ontarians from last year’s restored CALIGULA re-release. They also forced cuts on BAISE MOI, moral gladiators that they are. Thank god Quebec is in another galaxy as far as these judgments go, because SUBCONSCIOUS did get a good theatrical run here, in its full uncut version.
K:
Sure there were. But even crazier than that is the hatred that seems to be
projected towards me on some of these local Montreal chat groups for horror
fans. It’s really hilarious
seeing some of those people spend so much time and energy coming up with the
most basic and embarrassingly simple insults to throw my way.
It really makes me laugh. I
guess some people get angry and jealous when people accomplish things that they
cannot. Very pathetic actually to
see them put so much energy in complaining about me, when they could try to put
that energy into making themselves less unhappy people.
It’s really astonishing that the minute you do anything the legion of
people that will try to stand in your way.
Actually that just makes it funner.
M:
Seriously. I want to make my first
feature so I can get flamed online too! But yeah, loads of crazy things happened
during the film’s production. Here’s one for you: When we shot the
businessman’s nightmare sequence, where his penis is split like a banana peel,
we were slated to film in an empty apartment in the building where I live. The
janitor had let me shoot in empties many times before, but this time he was away
for the weekend (and we ONLY shot on weekends at this point). I asked his son
for permission and he shrugged and said it was cool, so a week later about ten
of us showed up with the camera, lights, gobos, effects, and began setting up.
Several hours later, we were just about to start shooting when the janitor
showed up and freaked. He’d just waxed the floors and was planning on showing
the apartment the next day, and here we were with all this ancient metal film
gear and corn syrup. To make a long story shorter, we had to divide the crew,
with half of them tearing through my own apartment down the hall, emptying the
entire contents of my living room out into the street while the other half
struck “the set” and rushed to rebuild it in the middle of my apartment!
Weirdly, it turned out to be one of the best days of the entire six-year-shoot.
We wrapped the full scene, with
pages of camera set-ups and complicated FX, in the centre of my apartment in
something like an eight-hour stretch and everyone had a terrific time doing it,
which makes it even more strange. Usually these sorts of things are hell.
NSV:
SUBCONSCIOUS
CRUELTY played at a couples of festivals around the world. Could you tell us
which and how was the reaction?
K:
Well, Subconscious Cruelty is not the easiest film to digest, so naturally there
are some who love it, and some who hate it.
We’ve had a lot of press and publicity on it, so that’s nice.
Some good reviews, some bad, and some simply baffled.
Perfect for a film like this. The
screenings of the film are always highly attended, so that is a good sign. But always, something like 5 – 10% of the audience leaves
the theatre. And that’s great.
Actually, I thought the percentage would be higher.
M:
Me too. Thankfully it looks like most people understand irony, and aren’t of
the classic PC ilk that insist on taking everything so bloody literally. We
always knew that this film could only exist for a small audience, and we’re
both kind of in shock seeing it connect with large rooms of people. At least
overseas, the audience is much, much larger than we’d ever considered
possible.
NSV:
I 've read that someone actually fainted at the Sitges film festival! How did
that turn out?
K:
Well, a guy had taken a few too many drugs and after the first couple
reels of the movie he collapsed face-first in the doorway to the cinema, drawing
attention to himself. There was a focus problem with the film, and I went into the
booth to try and solve it, and at that time they called an ambulance for the
guy. While I stepped over his body
to reach the booth, he dazedly looked up to me and said in Spanish “Cool
movie, man!”. He wore a Marylin
Manson T-Shirt. We always get the
longhairs for Subconscious. Guess
he liked what he saw of it.
M:
That was a very crazy night. We
were so happy to know that someone actually fainted but it had absolutely
nothing to do with the film. He would have fainted just as hard waiting for a
bus!
NSV:
Any plans to release SUBCONSCIOUS CRUELTY on VHS and DVD soon?
K:
It will be coming out in Japan by Albatros Film / New Select probably at
the beginning of next year, and by Cinema Novo in Portugal.
There are a few more territories in negotiation, but it will probably
take a bit. Right now it’s
playing a few festivals around the world and building up it’s name, so
that’s cool. Films like this,
tough and marginal movies need time to find their audience.
In a few years, after there are a few more films under both Mitch and
Myself’s belts, people will probably look back at this movie and see it in a
different light, as which happens a lot with projects such as this.
M:
Absolutely. Also, I’ve been pretty adamant about not selling North American
video rights, at least for the next little while. Firstly because no US company
will pay us properly at such an early stage of the film’s life. You know, any
story to get the MG ("Minimum Guarantee") price down as low as
possible – too extreme to market wide, too experimental to have an obvious
genre audience, this sort of thing. The film’s already built a strong cult
overseas with only about ten festival screenings under its belt. That’s just
amazing. In a year or so, we’ll
be able to point to the receipts from the European and Asian releases, and that
will be all the arguing we’ll need to do as far as negotiating a fair deal
goes. Also, I can’t help but feel that home video – and I’m not knocking
it, because I wouldn’t have seen half of my favourite films without it –
home video seems to strip these sorts of film of their mystique. I feel
there’s a certain rogue power behind films like EL TOPO and ERASERHEAD
that’s partially due to the fact
that they’re not readily available on video in this country. You have to make
a serious effort to actually see them. Of
course, they’re also both incredible films, but that’s another story.
Certain films should be allowed to keep their mystery through a kind of
cultural gestation period, and not be instantly defused with one quick trip to
the corner video shop.
NSV:
What's
next for Karim Hussain, Mitch Davis and Infliction Films?
K:
As for projects with Mitch and Infliction Films, I will be cinematographer on
the next short film he does. As for
myself, I have a few projects independent of Infliction Films, such as a rather
large short film called THE CITY WITHOUT WINDOWS that I am Co-Directing with
Julien Fonfrède, that will be shot in September 2001.
That has a lot of government money in it, so it’s pretty cool to be
able to afford good gear, and lenses etc…
My second feature film is scheduled to go into production in February
2002, a co-production between a Montreal Company, a Japanese one, and other
parties. Also I Co-Wrote with Nacho
(AFTERMATH, GENESIS) Cerda his first feature film called THRESHOLD OF DREAMS
which will be shot in Spain in February 2002 as well. So personally, I’ve got a pretty full plate.
I know Mitch wants to concentrate more on directing his own stuff instead
of producing other people’s movies, which is fine.
It’s what’s best for him. He’s
got a lot to say.
M:
Well, I’m definitely not interested in producing. I don’t enjoy being forced
into acting like a politician, and I’m anything but a businessman.
If I was a good producer in the past, and I’m not so sure that I was,
it was only because I cared too much about seeing these sorts of films get made
in this day and age. Whatever, I’m currently writing an adaptation of Rob
Hardin’s KNIVES FOR A NARCOLEPTIC (from his book DISTORTURE, and also
published in FUNERAL PARTY 2 a few years back), which I’m gunning for shooting
in the fall, provided that Rob likes what I’ve done with his story.
It’s got a completely straightforward narrative, so right away it will
be a different monster from ZERO. It’s a very soulful story, but its sheer
unpleasantness will definitely turn a lot of people off.
Karim’s going to be DP on this one and we’re going to shoot 16mm.
I’m also about two-thirds through my first feature screenplay, a
difficult-to-describe epic about a new form of venereal disease, mass murder and
Mensa-like cults of intelligentsia by the name of AMBER’S LIPS.
NSV:
Finally, what are your top five genre films?
K:
I would have to say my top five genre films would have to be: STALKER by
Andrei Tarkovsky, SALO by Pasolini, IN A GLASS CAGE by Agustin Villaronga, IN
THE REALM OF THE SENSES by Nagisa Oshima and THE HOLY MOUNTAIN by Jodorowsky.
But plenty more.
M:
Okay, I hate trying to do this. Five’s impossible, so here's whatever. In no
absolute order:
_________________________________________________________________________
Post
script: CITY WITHOUT WINDOWS was shot as planned. It has been completed, and a
stunning 35mm release print has been struck for festivals. Karim's second
feature, ASCENSION, began production in late February 2002, fronted by Marie-Josée
Croze, Barbara Ulrich, and Ilona Elkin. Mitch
collaborated with Rob Hardin through several drafts of KNIVES FOR A
NARCOLEPTIC which saw the story evolve in radical new directions. There is at
least one more draft to go before shooting will commence. In the interim, he
wrote and directed a 16mm short, GOD'S
LITTLE GIRL, in December 2001. AMBER'S LIPS is coming...